[Alvin]

Originally Posted by An Oasis

Should have been the only way to work years ago. I'm still surprised that the 2 are thought of as stand alone disciplines, would not touch one without the other.

well I think a lot of it is down to Artistic temperament conflict.

web designers think that what they do is the most important aspect of a website.?

SEO's Know that what they do is the most important aspect of a website.

Just popping down the air raid shelter for a couple of months.

The only time I get artistic is down the Pub.

Alvin

[Piglet]

It is scary how many websites are still being built that are not SEO friendly. SEO is not just a bolt on, it needs to be fundamental to the layout of the design. Venka is going about it in exactly the right way, ensuring that her designers give her a site that will allow the optimisation to be instigated to its maximum.

Too many people pay good money for a website then find that when they try to instigate SEO onto the pages, parts of the design just don't give them the facility to do so. We have been approached by many customers who we cannot help sufficiently because parts of the design just don't have the right elements.

We do design as well as SEO, although it is not something we shout about as our designs won't win any awards (but you can sure as hell SEO the a**e out of the sites). We have programmers who get a very strict brief to ensure that any content management system put in place has all the necessary SEO elements in place.

This sounds like a sales pitch and it wasn't meant to be, I just wanted to point out that the two can and should go hand in hand. After all there is no point have THE most fantastic website if nobody can find it.

K

[behigher]

well we started doing seo part time years ago, David Thompson our other director at the company started "in his shed" doing seo on yahoo and playing around with systems back in the early 90's -

When we went full time and created behigher earlier this year, we knew we had to offer both services. If you have the experience and expertise of understanding solid, ethical seo techniques then, I think, you have to offer webdesign and build too.

Like Piglet said, our designs may not be on the front cover of vogue, but you will have a site that has the fundementals for a good seo'd site from day one.

We launched our website only in early march and are quite proud of being under "small business seo" on page 2 of google, it shows that within a few weeks results can be achieved.

And, to be honest, we'd rather work from scratch, it's proven to get better results from day one, where as some of the sites we have been asked to work on, are shocking, and you just don't know where to start!

What is crazy is the amount of web designers who are charging £50/£100/£200 + per month for "seo" when they are infact doing nothing! or very little. Often, they are designers and carry out the design work, either themselves or through templates they have created, or bought - the problem with that is they are not specific for the company you are working with. Flash sites have their own problems with seo, but some of the sites I have seen, that apparently have their web design company "currently doing all the seo" are just lies!!!

we seem to be saying everyday to clients "whats the point of a website if nobody can find it?"

[boxby]

It seems to me that there are 4 clashing objective;

• Design
• Development & functionality
• SEO
• The real business/customer

And striking the right balance between all four is impossible. Some wise person told me recently that I should have the "courier" option as the first option off my menu, as this is the most important term for SEO purposes. (which is completely true)

However, for business purposes, this is the least important of three objectives?

So what wins?? My customer is more important to me than the courier, when they get to the website. However, getting people to the website means getting the SEO right.

Do you phrase your terms and conditions to give you the best possible legal protection, or to maximise SEO, as this is one of the most visible pages for SEO purposes

Chicken, egg, egg, chicken.........
Complete no win situation!!

[Alvin]

Originally Posted by boxby

It seems to me that there are 4 clashing objective;

• Design
• Development & functionality
• SEO
• The real business/customer

And striking the right balance between all four is impossible. Some wise person told me recently that I should have the "courier" option as the first option off my menu, as this is the most important term for SEO purposes. (which is completely true)

However, for business purposes, this is the least important of three objectives?

So what wins?? My customer is more important to me than the courier, when they get to the website. However, getting people to the website means getting the SEO right.

Do you phrase your terms and conditions to give you the best possible legal protection, or to maximise SEO, as this is one of the most visible pages for SEO purposes

Chicken, egg, egg, chicken.........
Complete no win situation!!

No brainer SEO nearly always come first.Never met any person I have worked with that did not realise that.?

If your site is not found on page 1 your not in business unless your spending a fortune on lavatory paper adds.

Just changing you title could make a significant difference to your traffic.the last thing you want as the most important word on you site is "Boxby"

Alvin.

[boxby]

Originally Posted by Alvin

No brainer SEO nearly always come first.Never met any person I have worked with that did not realise that.?

If your site is not found on page 1 your not in business unless your spending a fortune on lavatory paper adds.

Just changing you title could make a significant difference to your traffic.the last thing you want as the most important word on you site is "Boxby"

Alvin.

Not necessarily. Who is the stongest brand that you think for say "photocopiers". The company with the name, the brand;
Which manufactuer sells the most photocopiers worldwide, every year?

Do you see their name here? Do they rank on page 1 for google for photocopiers?
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en...tocopiers&meta=

Now, who has the better business? Rank, Xerox or Office Magic?
When you are deciding WHICH photocopier to buy are you thinking "oh, i must get one from Office Magic?" or are you thinking "the Xerox 432343 or whatever has had some really good reviews".

Please note, I am NOT, definitely NOT, comparing my business to Xerox. (In a million years, maybe!) It's just that there is more to a sucessful business than simply SEO, anyone who thinks simply SEO, SEO, SEO will be missing the boat somewhere.

[behigher]

Our most common problem is educating customers against what they have already been told, by their web designer, by their business partner, by customers or by the bloke down the pub.

SEO has to be the first building block in developing ANY website. Without such, how will customers find you? PPC is the only other alternative.

I like the analagy I tend to use quite often now...seo vs ppc is like buying a house vs renting a house...

With renting, you have a property but are constantly putting money, just to live there, at the end of the rental you have have very little.

Buying, however is a long term investment, and provides a property, but at the end of the term you have the value in the property in which to re-invest.

The value of your website can be defined by the positioning on natural search, hence the seo you have achieved.

[An Oasis]

Originally Posted by Piglet

It is scary how many websites are still being built that are not SEO friendly. SEO is not just a bolt on, it needs to be fundamental to the layout of the design. Venka is going about it in exactly the right way, ensuring that her designers give her a site that will allow the optimisation to be instigated to its maximum.

Too many people pay good money for a website then find that when they try to instigate SEO onto the pages, parts of the design just don't give them the facility to do so. We have been approached by many customers who we cannot help sufficiently because parts of the design just don't have the right elements.

We do design as well as SEO, although it is not something we shout about as our designs won't win any awards (but you can sure as hell SEO the a**e out of the sites). We have programmers who get a very strict brief to ensure that any content management system put in place has all the necessary SEO elements in place.

This sounds like a sales pitch and it wasn't meant to be, I just wanted to point out that the two can and should go hand in hand. After all there is no point have THE most fantastic website if nobody can find it.

K

Not sure everyone read and understood the quote from Piglet (LOL Kerry) but if you did and dismissed it, read it again. If you are still doubtful read it a third time. In fact read it until you understand the significance of what Piggy is saying.

[An Oasis]

Originally Posted by Alvin

well I think a lot of it is down to Artistic temperament conflict.

web designers think that what they do is the most important aspect of a website.?

SEO's Know that what they do is the most important aspect of a website.

Would not argue there good sir. The simple fact is that it has bugger all to do with either party. It is the client that needs to understand where they are going wrong, if they go with only one of the two options.

A site that has been SEO'd well but looks pants will not convert well and site that looks great but no one sees will not make many sales...end of story.

[boxby]

Originally Posted by An Oasis

Would not argue there good sir. The simple fact is that it has bugger all to do with either party. It is the client that needs to understand where they are going wrong, if they go with only one of the two options.

A site that has been SEO'd well but looks pants will not convert well and site that looks great but no one sees will not make many sales...end of story.

Bang on! And a site that "looks" good, and is SEO'd well, but people can't figure out how to pay on is equally useless. It's a balance. And a bloody difficult one!!