[RedEvo]

Originally Posted by SBP

Hmmm, well, the government has a regulator for these types of things...

As far as I am aware, the government runs this country and they have had every opportunity to sort things out, but they haven't and here we are in a very bad situation...

I agree the government could have introduced measures to curb excessive borrowing etc instead choosing to rake in stamp duty. However I maintain in a free society some (perhaps a lot) of the responsibility lies with you and me.

I'd personally hate to see the nanny state extended for the want of people taking responsibility for their own behaviour. Our society needs to take a long hard look at itself and not simply moan about the government. IMHO.

d

[IP2]

Originally Posted by RedEvo

I agree the government could have introduced measures to curb excessive borrowing etc instead choosing to rake in stamp duty. However I maintain in a free society some (perhaps a lot) of the responsibility lies with you and me.

I'd personally hate to see the nanny state extended for the want of people taking responsibility for their own behaviour. Our society needs to take a long hard look at itself and not simply moan about the government. IMHO.

d

Being North of the Border David, which Government are you referring too?

[RedEvo]

The UK Government.

d

[Martin-Subbynet]

Originally Posted by RedEvo

So UKPLC is in a mess purely because of the government? Nothing to do with the population in general living beyond their means, salivating over anything involving bricks, shopping for kicks etc etc. Come on, it's not all the fault of the government. They have messed up I'd agree but they are not totally to blame. IMHO.

d

Frankly - YES.

1. Sold our Gold cheap
2. Increased Public Debt
3. Added new debt for future generations (PFI)
4. Loaded up students with around £15k debt each
5. At the same time stats show more than 75% of new jobs went to immigrants
6. Bailed out the banks with billions of pounds - they should have gone under!
7. Wasted countless billions of pounds on hospitals and Schools building plan to rise standards - yet Eton is an old pile of bricks, and in public sector wages
8. Did I mention the fastest growth in public sector wages ever?
9. Did I mention that we have more public workers now than ever before?
10. Added more Quango's than any other government (over £140 Billion spent by Quango's)
11. Doubled the cost of Council Tax since they have been in power
12. The increase in government spending because of devolution (Welsh and Scottish gov buildings alone went over by millions)
13. The sheer waste of money on government IT systems - during 03/04 more than £23 Billion was spent, and it ran over on costs by £2 Billion so far.
14. The cock up which is the new NHS computer system
15. Selling one of our best defense firms Qinetiq for pennies while the old managers invest £500,000 and all take home £25,000,000 days later - this was a crime.
16. The sink hole for cash which is Afganistan and Iraq

This is the tip of the iceberg, if I had the time or if I could be bothered I'd list you hundreds more examples, and remember the ID Card Scheme is still planned to go ahead, say goodbye to more billions of pounds.

Honestly, take a look at the record of Labour. This is a government not fit to lead by example and that is pretty much reflected in the people themselves.

[RedEvo]

Originally Posted by Martin-Subbynet

Frankly - YES.

1. Sold our Gold cheap
2. Increased Public Debt
3. Added new debt for future generations (PFI)
4. Loaded up students with around £15k debt each
5. At the same time stats show more than 75% of new jobs went to immigrants
6. Bailed out the banks with billions of pounds - they should have gone under!
7. Wasted countless billions of pounds on hospitals and Schools building plan to rise standards - yet Eton is an old pile of bricks, and in public sector wages
8. Did I mention the fastest growth in public sector wages ever?
9. Did I mention that we have more public workers now than ever before?
10. Added more Quango's than any other government (over £140 Billion spent by Quango's)
11. Doubled the cost of Council Tax since they have been in power
12. The increase in government spending because of devolution (Welsh and Scottish gov buildings alone went over by millions)
13. The sheer waste of money on government IT systems - during 03/04 more than £23 Billion was spent, and it ran over on costs by £2 Billion so far.
14. The cock up which is the new NHS computer system
15. Selling one of our best defense firms Qinetiq for pennies while the old managers invest £500,000 and all take home £25,000,000 days later - this was a crime.
16. The sink hole for cash which is Afganistan and Iraq

This is the tip of the iceberg, if I had the time or if I could be bothered I'd list you hundreds more examples, and remember the ID Card Scheme is still planned to go ahead, say goodbye to more billions of pounds.

Honestly, take a look at the record of Labour. This is a government not fit to lead by example and that is pretty much reflected in the people themselves.

That's an impressive list but I don't believe a society can be turned into a list. Each of the points you mentioned may or may not be true and behind each item will be complex story or gross incompetence or both. I'm not an apologist for the government, whatever their colour. My point is we have to take responsibility for our own society. We can't turn the other cheek and simply blame the government.

I've seen governments of all political persuasions make a complete mess of the country. Labour have done it, the Tories have done it and it will always be thus. Running a country is a complex business

d

[IP2]

Anyone remember getting a referendum on whether we should sell our Gold or not?

I won't work my way down the list, but aside from the initial majority vote, I fail to see how the "you and me" mentality works in such political incompetence?

[RedEvo]

Originally Posted by IP2

Anyone remember getting a referendum on whether we should sell our Gold or not?

I won't work my way down the list, but aside from the initial majority vote, I fail to see how the "you and me" mentality works in such political incompetence?

Personally I don't believe in referenda but I do believe in personal responsibility. We could rake through the ashes of past governments bad decisions, ERM, winter of discontent, Suez, the list is endless.

My point is, if we simply point the finger at successive governments we are being naive IMHO. For example, business has played a significant part in the current mess in which we find ourselves. The financial industry has destroyed peoples lives whilst it's bosses waltz off with a kings ransom.

I'm not disputing the government have made some terrible decisions and played their part in creating the mess the country is in. My only contention is that to blame the government for all the countries ills is to use a political term, disingenuous

It's just the way I view things. My personal opinion

d

[Martin-Subbynet]

Originally Posted by RedEvo

That's an impressive list but I don't believe a society can be turned into a list.

A society? - no... Blunders? - Yes, and very easily. (see above )

You see, the problem is you said "I don't believe a society can be turned into a list"... This is not really an answer, as it doesn't really say anything but allow room to ignore or avoid answering the points made.

I wouldn't say that makes you an apoligist, but damn it sounds like a man with his eyes and ears firmly shut. (no offense meant!)

Each of the points you mentioned may or may not be true and behind each item will be complex story or gross incompetence or both.

If that doesn't sound like a line meant to make room for an excuse I don't know what else it is!

I'm not an apologist for the government, whatever their colour. My point is we have to take responsibility for our own society. We can't turn the other cheek and simply blame the government.

We do take responsibility. If you or I were to get in debt, we would be made bankrupt. Its much like the title of this thread, because its got to the point where ok, fair enough - the country isn't really "bankrupt", but Labours morals are well and truly bankrupt. The difference is they're tried in the court of public opinion.

What's happening here is us people are starting to take responsibility for our own society, and we are starting with the rot which is Labour.

I've seen governments of all political persuasions make a complete mess of the country. Labour have done it, the Tories have done it and it will always be thus. Running a country is a complex business

But on one hand you're saying we need to take responsibility, on the other you say it will always be a mess. Which implies its not worth trying, or maybe that we should just put-up with this lot?

If I've noticed anything in this thread, its that on the fence isn't the best place to sit my friend. lol

[IP2]

Originally Posted by RedEvo

My personal opinion

d

Equally mine, my friend. No disrespect intended or hopefully taken.

[Alvin]

Originally Posted by RedEvo

So UKPLC is in a mess purely because of the government? Nothing to do with the population in general living beyond their means, salivating over anything involving bricks, shopping for kicks etc etc. Come on, it's not all the fault of the government. They have messed up I'd agree but they are not totally to blame. IMHO.

d

Agreed bing and the keeping up with the Jones's is at at an all time high.

Adults in the UK have an average dept of £30,000 .Now the government did not do that.

we spend 9% of our income on food and 20% on our cars.

so one asumes there are starving kids being driven around in new BMW's.

Add to that our company laws that allow companies like NR to go broke owing billions,Gov's fault I know.

Alvin