[mrleesimpson]

A discussion is brewing in the 'Get Quotes or Find Suppliers' over the pros and cons of DIY Site Builders and the other options that are available. So I thought I'd bring it out here to see what everyones elses thoughts are.

I for one am totally against them (as I've mentioned on other forums before), I really think that they do more harm than good overall and I'm yet to see an impressive site created in one.

The reason behind this is that I think if your looking for a website on a budget then there are tons of much options to consider such as CSS templates and Wordpress.

I know Paul @ awebapart.com has some really good arguments for them, but what is everyone else thoughts?

[openmind]

Referring directly to Office Live, it is one of the better ones out there but the quality is still very poor.

On a technical note, one of my hosting clients recently transferred away from them to us for hosting. Now MS recommended they do a transfer in to Melbourne IT for their domain name. After quickly checking the renewal costs for a UK domain, it was an astonishing $150 for a 2 year registration!

Obviously not good they tried for weeks to get the IPS tag changed so we could transfer in with no luck and in the end had to go through Nominet and pay to get the tag changed as Melbourne IT's communication skills are rather lacking i.e. they don't have any

So apart from the code there are more deeper reasons why this MS live in particular is a bad choice and without digging into the others I would also imagine a struggle with moving away at a later date...

[mrleesimpson]

nightmare.

[awebapart]

Originally Posted by mrleesimpson

A discussion is brewing in the 'Get Quotes or Find Suppliers' over the pros and cons of DIY Site Builders and the other options that are available. So I thought I'd bring it out here to see what everyones elses thoughts are.

I am glad you have brought this up here, thank you, as I felt that starting a criticism of another person's recommendation/solution in a quotes/tender section was not the in thing to do. Ask a dozen suppliers for a web solution and you will get different solutions and a dozen different websites. Ask for any quote/solution in a tenders section and you will get different answers/solutions but those who answer shouldn't really start to criticise other supplier's recommendations, any other non-tender thread and that sort of thing is fine, but not in a quote/tender thread.

I have copied my original reply from the original tender thread to here, but since it was a reply rather than a general post about sitebuilders, it was still very much based on the OP's particular requirements and a reply to your original comments on my recommendation in that thread...

--- start of original reply ---

Originally Posted by mrleesimpson

Microsoft Office Live sites are some of the worst 'easy' build sites that I've come across and although they're free can do more damage then good to a company brand.

I disagree.

As far as the cheap or free mass market DIY sitebuilders go, they are one of the better ones. They are the only free one that do provide domain and hosting under the domain and no adverts, and their sitebuilder is quite good. If you are worried about company branding then it is possible to remove the default headers, get a graphic designer (preferably your logo designer) to come up with a nice logo banner graphic (as one of the logo deliverables) and use that, for example:

http://abstractworldsltd.tech.officelive.com
(this site hasn't been assigned a domain name yet, otherwise it would be under that domain name rather than the officelive one)

DIY sitebuilders like instant site from www.123-reg.co.uk, a sitebuilder system used by many hosts as their whitelabel web-builder, is much more problematic with branding since the templates are already strongly branded and it is more difficult to remove this.

I've seen worse sites using DIY sitebuilders than the Microsoft one, just like I've seen worse custom designed sites too. Mrsite sites can sometimes be pretty poor as well as Moonfruit sites, but that doesn't stop some now quite famous brands like Reggae Reggae sauce using a Mrsite site (www.mrsite.co.uk/welcome.asp).

I have set up a site before using the 123 instant site builder:

www.webdesignnorthampton.org.uk

which does outline some of the pros and cons of these mass market DIY sitebuilders. This site used to be quite high on page 1 of google for web design northampton, ahead of many custom designed websites from local web design firms, and it still is above a lot of competing websites on page 2

Free sitebuilders like MySpace are also used as promotional vehicles for music artists (Oasis), magazines (Rolling Stone Magazine), movies (The Incredible Hulk), video game consoles (Xbox) - all global brands.

Originally Posted by mrleesimpson

paying a site designer a small amount to get her content in there

But what about when they want to update the site, add new sections (e.g. testimonials), pages (update prices) etc - with a sitebuilder they can manage the content themselves.

Originally Posted by mrleesimpson

can do more damage then good to a company brand

It amazes me the discussions we get about branding on business forums. Let's put things into perspective here, we're talking about a small startup local cleaning company, not the next global hollywood blockbuster film (e.g. Kung Fu Panda) or some national consumer product about to be launched (e.g. iPhone). Surely we are not going to recommend that they go down the full branding route, getting logo trademarks etc. The importance of branding will vary according to the company, market, product, service, etc and it will go from extremely important for some companies (e.g. Hollywood) sliding down to not very important for other companies (e.g. your local fruit and veg market stall), so the question for any new startup is where should they be on this sliding scale of brand importance.

If I was to employ one, would I care that the local company I use to clean my office or house has gone through a corporate branding exercise and has a nice logo? Frankly no. Would I care that a graphic design company, if I was to use one (we don't need one as we do this in-house), has gone through a corporate branding exercise and has a nice logo? More so perhaps, but even then I'd be more interested in the quality of the work they do for their clients.

Originally Posted by awebapart.com

I would recommend a keyword rich local domain (e.g. cleaner-areaX.co.uk)

After reading all this you might think I'm totally anti-brand and more function focused, e.g. keywords in the domain name rather than a fancy brand name for SEO purposes, but this advice also applies to branding, as the Naming your business article on the startups site suggests (see the third paragraph from the end).

--- end of original reply ---

Originally Posted by openmind

one of my hosting clients recently transferred away from them to us for hosting. Now MS recommended they do a transfer in to Melbourne IT for their domain name. After quickly checking the renewal costs for a UK domain, it was an astonishing $150 for a 2 year registration!

In the original thread I recommended purchasing the domain from an established domain registrar like 123-reg.co.uk. Both Microsoft Office Live and Mrsite do allow you to do this (Mrsite doesn't advertise this much though) and then set your domain's nameservers to their servers, thus giving you full control and ownership of your domain from your chosen domain registrar. This avoids these kind of issues you have mentioned about moving away, if you outgrow the sitebuilder service, in the future. If you buy your domain as part of a Mrsite purchase, MrSite has a domain move away penalty too (though not so high), charging you £15 for a .co.uk domain that should normally cost around £3.

Originally Posted by mrleesimpson

DIY Site Builders

I don't think sitebuilder services have to be completely DIY for small businesses. For instance a startup wanting the usual business startup things like a logo, business cards, website etc could ask a graphic designer to create the logo and a logo banner graphic for their Office Live website, the graphic designer could be the one stop solution provider initially setting up the Office Live website with banner, layout and colour scheme.

[awebapart]

Originally Posted by openmind

After quickly checking the renewal costs for a UK domain, it was an astonishing $150 for a 2 year registration!

When you first mentioned that ridiculously high cost, I thought perhaps that is related to some Microsoft moving away penalty clause, or just a very high 'foot in the door' renewal cost, but no, I've just checked and Melbourne IT are charging exactly the same price if you register a new .co.uk domain with them. Unbelievable!

[openmind]

OK I haven't got time to write a protracted response so I'll just raise a couple of points.

If my car breaks down do I try and do it myself or do I go to a garage?

I go to the garage because they know what they are doing.

When submitting my accounts do I do it myself or do I use an accountant?

I go the accountant because they know what they are doing.

If I want some flyers designing do I whip out MS paint or do I go to a graphic designer?

I go the designer because they know what they are doing.

See where this is going?

Considering the sometimes considerable costs startups incur when starting their business why on earth do they go for the cheap and cheerful route when it comes to their website which in today's age has become a necessity rather than an afterthought.

I have on many occasions not contacted or purchased from a company because of a poor, amateurish or DIY site simply because that does not inspire trust with me to spend my money with them and that's the bottom line to this.

A recent client cam to me asking about our bespoke ecommerce service which at £849 is fairly reasonable considering what they are getting. They baulked at the cost and said "Well we'll just use osCommerce and do it ourself" It was only after explaining the in and outs of the system, the benefits about not doing themselves that they came on board.

How much are they turning over? About £20k per month....

Web design and development still has no value in peoples eyes and that is partly down IMHO to DIY options that do nothing for the client and nothing for the industry itself.

If it's a hobby, DIY. If it's a business and you don't have the resources, don't.

[openmind]

Originally Posted by awebapart.com

When you first mentioned that ridiculously high cost, I thought perhaps that is related to some Microsoft moving away penalty clause, or just a very high 'foot in the door' renewal cost, but no, I've just checked and Melbourne IT are charging exactly the same price if you register a new .co.uk domain with them. Unbelievable!

And an awful lot of people would end up paying that because they simply don't know better...

[awebapart]

Originally Posted by openmind

If my car breaks down do I try and do it myself or do I go to a garage?

I go to the garage because they know what they are doing.

There is another side to this vehicle analogy...

I want a new car or van for my business. I certainly wouldn't try building one myself, not even from car kits, I haven't got the time. Do I go to a car designer and builder and get them to build me a vehicle to my exact requirements from scratch (or from components), or do I buy a vehicle that is already on the market, tried and tested, in a choice of some appropriate colours, and perhaps add a logo onto it? Do I buy upfront or long term lease (e.g. do I buy a £21000 vehicle or lease it for £380 per month for 3 years, knowing I'll get latest model on the next lease), or do I avoid big initial upfront payments in other ways with a long term loan and service contract from the car dealer? A sitebuilder service is more the equivalent of a leased company car option (but with shorter leases), providing the business with a vehicle for a low cost of entry, and this low cost of entry frees up more money for the startup business to spend in other areas to kick start the business (e.g. advertising, logo and print design, etc), and keeps the initial cashflow healthier for a uncertain future (a lot of business owners do tend to overestimate how successful they will be in the first few years).

And another analogy...

I want an office or shop for my business. Do I find a piece of land, and commission an architect to build my building? Do I buy an office building or shop? Or do I rent an office building or shop? Do I go for a fully serviced office? A sitebuilder service is more the equivalent of the fully serviced office or shop, it gives you something you can use from day 1 for a low cost of entry without the future maintenance worries, but you can still make it tatty if you DIY decorate it.

Sitebuilders are just another tool to help create a website, other tools include web design software, ecommerce systems like osCommerce or OpenMindCommerce, content management systems etc. A business can decide to DIY or not with any of these tools or they can get help from professionals where necessary. With some sitebuilders, what I am advocating is that since the website is there already, working from day 1, the type of professional that a business really needs to turn to is not a web designer/developer, but a graphic designer (which they probably need anyway for other things), and maybe copywriters and SEO consultants.

Sitebuilders don't have to be DIY, just like all the other web creation tools don't have to be DIY. Unfortunately most users of the free/cheap mass-market sitebuilders do treat them as DIY tools, maybe due to budget constraints, or maybe because they are unaware of how they could really use them in anger with a little professional help from a graphic designer or an SEO consultant, and in the case of an ecommerce sitebuilder, an ecommerce consultant.

[mrleesimpson]

Originally Posted by awebapart.com

It amazes me the discussions we get about branding on business forums. Let's put things into perspective here, we're talking about a small startup local cleaning company, not the next global hollywood blockbuster film (e.g. Kung Fu Panda) or some national consumer product about to be launched (e.g. iPhone). Surely we are not going to recommend that they go down the full branding route, getting logo trademarks etc. The importance of branding will vary according to the company, market, product, service, etc and it will go from extremely important for some companies (e.g. Hollywood) sliding down to not very important for other companies (e.g. your local fruit and veg market stall), so the question for any new startup is where should they be on this sliding scale of brand importance.

I think corporate brand is severely overlooked by small businesses and statistics show (UK Design Council) that even the smallest of branding exercises can increase turn over and profit in most companies.

Branding isn't just about a fancy looking website and logo, the brand is the way people percieve your business whether they do it consciously or sub-consciously. It's hard to remove yourself from the fact that its a very important aspect of any business in most industries.

Originally Posted by awebapart.com

If I was to employ one, would I care that the local company I use to clean my office or house has gone through a corporate branding exercise and has a nice logo? Frankly no.

Probably not willingly no, but I find it hard to believe that you would take no notice of it at all. For example flicking through the Yellow pages do your eyes focus on the listings with well planned graphics, a clean professional logo and well written copy or the 2 line ad that simple lets you know the company name and telephone number?

[awebapart]

I'm trying to put forward common sense arguments and you're coming back with dubious statistics and more dubious Yellow pages and general advertising "gotta buy a bigger advert" sales techniques!

Originally Posted by mrleesimpson

I think corporate brand is severely overlooked by small businesses and statistics show (UK Design Council) that even the smallest of branding exercises can increase turn over and profit in most companies.

I've discussed those dubious Design Council statistics before on another forum

If you are referring to the Design Council study that came up with the statistic:

"Every £100 a design alert business spends on design increases turnover by £225."

then that just goes to show that reports can be commissioned, statistics quoted, and partial stories (not the whole story) can be used to support any argument or promote any cause.

The whole story behind those Design Council quotes is that were taken from a www.designfactfinder.co.uk study, and the important thing to note is that the study initially asked 1500 companies, then based their findings on a subset of 250 which they classed as design alert - check what they define as design alert:

"we interviewed 1,500 businesses across the UK. From these, we identified 250 businesses that had observed a direct impact from the use of design on several business performance measures. We call these businesses ’design alert’. We went back to them with more detailed questions on their use of design and whether they could quantify the results."

so those companies that may have invested in design but saw no direct impact were not included in the study. The study chose to focus on those companies that would support the favourable end statistic they were looking for, and ignore the others.

Methinks the design council should have designed their study more carefully.

Always check the small-print.

Originally Posted by mrleesimpson

For example flicking through the Yellow pages do your eyes focus on the listings with well planned graphics, a clean professional logo and well written copy or the 2 line ad that simple lets you know the company name and telephone number?

For local services, I usually look at name (alphabetically ordered) and address (location, closer the better), and any other useful textual information, so in this instance I would say that copy is more important than graphics and logo (I know what a taxi looks like, what a mop and brush or an office looks like, etc), but even without graphics it is all part of branding. We don't bother with paid advertising in directories like Yellow Pages, but we do go for the free listing, and we use our web domain name rather than company name (so people can find out more information if they need to), and we have a name beginning with "a". For other companies it will be different, e.g. companies you need in a hurry like plumbers, special event companies like wedding dress companies, restaurants maybe. If yellow pages advertising is important then do invest in this, and one way to free up money to invest in this is by saving money in other areas, e.g. using a sitebuilder for your website.

Originally Posted by mrleesimpson

Branding isn't just about a fancy looking website and logo, the brand is the way people percieve your business

Agreed. Amongst other things, it is also about your company name, and the information you provide about your company. And for a small local startup company I see little reason why a Microsoft Office Live website would hinder this. Since the company can update the website themselves, a sitebuilder would help with the branding, because it allows the business to continually improve the content, what they are saying about their company, and what their clients are saying about their company, on their website.